¡Bienvenido! Mi casa no es su casa.

April 21st, 2010 · 183 comments

“I pass this billboard every day on my way home from work,” says our submitter from Tennessee. “Apparently, some tax breaks were given for Volkswagen to build a plant here in Chattanooga, which will eventually bring thousands of jobs to this area. This group is upset that not EVERYONE who is involved in constructing the plant was born in the United States.”

Tennessee welcomes all the workers from OTHER COUNTRIES who are building the Volkswagen plant.   We hope you enjoy those jobs...BECAUSE WE PAID FOR THEM!

A side note from Ana in Guatemala (fifth flag from the left): “Guatemala is a very beautiful — albeit dangerous — country. Crime rates are through the roof, but in this small American-run inn, hope prevails…mostly.”

BIENVENIDO WELCOME Please leave your your bags here.. They are 99.9% safe BUT... We do not accept responsibility

related: America the not-so-beautiful

FILED UNDER: "customer service" · casual xenophobia · Espanol · Guatemala · politics · sarcasm · Tennessee


183 responses so far ↓

  • #1   sleeps

    Wow…most expensive PAN ever?

    Apr 21, 2010 at 12:17 am   rating: 49  small thumbs up

    • #1.1   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

      Here in Tennessee, we call it trickle-down bigotry, and we’re damn good at it. See, we get it from Massachusetts, inject some capital, and then we give it to Central America. Then they take it, consume it, and give it god-knows-who, American Samoa or something. Everyone wins.

      So for PAN commenters who want to perpetuate the stereotype that Tennesseans are ignorant racists, please donate your aggression. We need more billboards.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:46 am   rating: 27  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.2   Canthz_B bang

      To be sure, it’s a sad stereotype.
      I plan to visit the fine State of Tennessee…I’ll be staying at the Lorraine Motel.

      Hold your fire!!! :lol:

      I know it’s not Godwin’s, but there ought to be a law.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:59 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.3   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

      We gave Memphis to Mississippi shortly after that incident – where it belongs.

      Did you not get the map updates we sent out?

      Ugh, it bet it was because they were PDF. We still have trouble opening PDFs.
      Collectively, as a state.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:15 am   rating: 30  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.4   mamason bang

      I don’t understand all the hubbub. The billboard clearly extends a heartfelt welcome with warm wishes of hope. You liberals and foreigners are so damned sensitive. ;-)

      The only issue I have with that lovely billboard is the concept of “Volunteers for local hire”. :-?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:49 am   rating: 23  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.5   Tina

      Tennessee is “The Volunteer State” so people from there are sometimes called volunteers. Though I agree it makes for a funnily named organization.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:41 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.6   mamason bang

      I’ve never been to Tennessee. If you get a divorce there, are you still legally brother and sister?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:44 pm   rating: 67  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.7   anglophile bang

      I picture Tina as that one co-worker who is always explaining why that joke isn’t really funny, because of course the Pope would never actually sleep with a cheerleading team.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 6:46 pm   rating: 8  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.8   mamason bang

      Unless it was an all boy cheerleading team. Rah! Rah! Sis-boom-bah!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 6:58 pm   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.9   infant tyrone bang

      Was that what happened to George Bush ?
      I thought he was an Episcopalian or something.
      I guess the Pope is more Catholic in his tastes
      than the name would lead you to think.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 7:08 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #1.10   infant tyrone bang

      Mamason,
      I think if you get divorced there your status reverts to being the ‘cousins’ that you claimed to be when you filed for the marriage license.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:24 pm   rating: 14  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #2   kewlito

    Extra info: The flag over VENEZUELA is for URUGUAY.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 12:21 am   rating: 106  small thumbs up

    • #2.1   Anita

      Came here to say that.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:42 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.2   infant tyrone bang

      Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to
      To-may-to, To-mah-to
      Venezuela, Uruguay ?

      I know they’re more dangerous if you wreck ‘em,
      but I think I’ll ‘Volunteer’ for a Harley-Davidson.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:02 am   rating: 7  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.3   Canthz_B bang

      Like there’s a difference to a Redneck in Tennessee?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:04 am   rating: 24  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.4   DanielMac

      Who cares because IT’S NOT AMURRICAN!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:48 am   rating: 12  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.5   Noemi

      I think the people that made the charter didn’t really decided which one did they greet, Venezolan or uruguayan people… or simply they’re idiots.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:35 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.6   Badder Speller

      You’re either stupid or an awesome troll.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:31 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.7   mamason bang

      An awesomely stupid troll, perhaps? ;-)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:48 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.8   infant tyrone bang

      Be all that you can be
      in the Army in Tennessee

      Apr 21, 2010 at 7:10 pm   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
    • #2.9   eyehearta2

      …or saw the movie Team America. (Fuck yah!)

      Apr 22, 2010 at 8:49 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #3   César

    Yeah, I’m venezuelan and I was like wait…

    So either they didn’t know the name of the country for the flag they’d gotten and said, fuck it, use whatever name comes up. Or they had Venezuela but couldn’t find the flag and said, fuck it, slap any flag on there. They won’t notice.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 12:28 am   rating: 40  small thumbs up

    • #3.1   Canthz_B bang

      Could it be that Hugo Chavez paid for the billboard?
      He probably has designs on Uruguay and just wanted to test out the look.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:08 am   rating: 38  small thumbs up

       
    • #3.2   Mo® bang

      Hate is not known for accuracy of facts.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:43 am   rating: 39  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #4   Justin Clemens

    That’s how well educated are these chauvinist bastards

    Apr 21, 2010 at 12:45 am   rating: 7  small thumbs up

    • #4.1   Canthz_B bang

      Not even gonna touch you…it’s too easy! ;-)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:05 am   rating: 20  small thumbs up

       
    • #4.2   mamason bang

      That’s what you told me last night.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:41 am   rating: 18  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #5   Canthz_B bang

    99.9% of the bags are safe?

    Are .1% left by al qaeda?

    Apr 21, 2010 at 1:13 am   rating: 17  small thumbs up

     
  • #6   Canthz_B bang

    I like the second poster best.
    I’m always impressed when someone is willing to go that extra 1/16 of a mile to go bilingual.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 1:17 am   rating: 25  small thumbs up

     
  • #7   Blogmella bang

    You can’t blame the people of Tennessee for being shocked – After all, who would expect a good ol’ company like Volkswagen to employ people from” Other Countries”? They’re as American as momma’s apple Krapfen!

    Apr 21, 2010 at 1:38 am   rating: 77  small thumbs up

    • #7.1   Canthz_B bang

      A little piece of Hitler is always welcome in Tennessee…birthplace of the KKK.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:04 am   rating: 17  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.2   Blogmella bang

      Hitler? Hahaha! I think you’ll find he is dead.

      Still, by dragging up the subject of Hitler (this long after the war) you’ve actually managed to make me (a Brit) feel sorry for a bunch of Germans. Go you!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:13 am   rating: 6  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.3   Canthz_B bang

      Yup, dead as a doornail, but the “people’s car” he commissioned lives on.

      Try to get the joke, ok?

      Damn, you treat me like I’m a dirty Jew! :-P

      P.S. You do know that Mitsubishi built the Zero fighter planes Japan used during WWII, right?
      Happy motoring! :-)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:23 am   rating: 22  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.4   park rose

      Good Godwin, blog . . . even I got that one.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 4:01 am   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.5   Blogmella bang

      Gah! That wooshed right over my head – clearly I needed more tea at that stage of the morning. I am ashamed, truly. On the plus side though, I can stop feeling sorry for the Germans now.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 4:37 am   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.6   Canthz_B bang

      Tea? What’s a Brit doing drinking te-…oh, that’s right. Tea to a Brit is like Budweiser to a Tennessee NASCAR fan. The stuff of life.
      Thanks for inventing the gin and tonic as a delightful alternative.
      Tea sucks at malaria fighting! :-)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:28 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.7   Mark bang

      Don’t mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. So it’s all forgotten now and let’s hear no more about it. So that’s two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goering and four Colditz salads….no, wait a minute…I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:46 am   rating: 23  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.8   Clumber

      Que?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:25 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.9   Mo® bang

      Ah Manuel!
      ¿Qué?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:44 pm   rating: 6  small thumbs up

       
    • #7.10   Z

      Manuel!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:48 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #8   park rose bang

    Well, if note-writers one had invested as much capital as note-writers two did, then they too would have a solid block-lettered sign promising only a .1% chance of failure (pardon my maths, there).

    What does it all mean? I don’t know I just wanted to get into a UPPER CASE vs lower case argument. Those lower cases are just so vulgar sometimes.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 1:52 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

    • #8.1   infant tyrone bang

      rose,
      Y’all talkin’ Vulgate right down there in the Bible Belt of Merkin Dumb-ocracy has got a couple of my Deadly Sins meters redlining
      like a Nascar engine in 3rd place trying to get that chequered flag.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:20 am   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #9   John

    My parents are immigrants who came to the US for economic opportunity. From what they tell me of their early days here, they found it to be a welcoming place… so much so that half a century later they are still here and consider it their true home, and raised their family here.

    Of course, they are non-Hispanic white people.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 3:05 am   rating: 26  small thumbs up

    • #9.1   r3loaded

      And they probably didn’t move to the South either :P

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:12 am   rating: 11  small thumbs up

       
    • #9.2   Canthz_B bang

      My people came here long before, they found easy employment in the South.
      Of course, they were non-Hispanic, non-white people, but they didn’t even have to buy tickets to get here…Suckers!

      Who’s your travel agent?!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:28 am   rating: 40  small thumbs up

       
    • #9.3   maceelaine bang

      Naw, we hate Canadians, too.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:23 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #10   claw71 bang

    I can’t speak on behalf of all Americans but I’m pretty sure I’d like Tennessee a lot more if we could replace all of its native inhabitants with people of foreign origin. Can’t we earmark some stimulus money for that undertaking?

    By the way, did anybody else notice the flag that’s cut off on the right is Poland’s? How’s that for a blow to the self esteem? How many Polacks does it take to build a Volkswagen plant? I don’t know either but they beat the hell out of your typical Tennessean!

    Apr 21, 2010 at 7:54 am   rating: 26  small thumbs up

    • #10.1   Canthz_B bang

      I dunno, claw, anyone who is proud to display the battle flag of traitors to their country can’t be all bad, eh?
      That shows America’s greatness.
      Name me another country that’s had a civil war that keeps the loser’s flag alive and flying high.

      Yup, we’re way ahead of the curve on that one! :-P

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:35 am   rating: 6  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.2   Bored at Work

      They had to include Poland. (Non-hispanic white.) Otherwise, this might have come off as racist……

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:40 am   rating: 11  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.3   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

      If by Poland you mean Paraguay then thanks for playing?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:41 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.4   Bored at Work

      Paraguay has a blue stripe. Poland is red and white only. Team Poland!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:49 am   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.5   Canthz_B bang

      When did Paraguay’s flag lose the blue bar which makes up its bottom third?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:51 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.6   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

      You are right. I stand ashamed and corrected:
      “This follows on the heels of previouisly reported incidents; such as Volkswagen setting aside two days a week for “non-English speaking employee orientation;” and the discovery of workers on the job from countries such as Venezuela, Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico, Guatemala, and Poland.”

      http://www.volunteersforlocalhire.com/News.aspx?nID=7665

      I thought we got rid of all the Poles when Casimir Pulaski died.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:54 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.7   claw71 bang

      Paraguay’s flag proudly sports red, white and blue, in that very order from top to bottom.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:56 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.8   Canthz_B bang

      You can’t get more American than the Paraguayan flag.
      Everyone knows Red, White and Blue rule…even the French and Russians!
      The Poles meant to add blue, but succumbed to a Polish joke during the design phase. :-P

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:09 am   rating: 13  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.9   claw71 bang

      As flags go, I find ours a little gaudy. Most countries settle for a couple of stripes but we have 13 of them. I always get confused and think our founding fathers were barbers. The worst is the blue square of stars. I understand that the symbolism but there’s something to be said for a nice, understated flag.

      I like Brazil’s flag. It almost looks like something you’d see in an interplanetary federation meeting.

      Speaking of flags, my redneck neighbors got all worked up over my other neighbors sporting a “camel jockey” flag on their SUV. Upon closer examination I discovered that this sleeper cell was actually proud of their South Carolina roots. South Carolina’s flag does look like something you’d see at an OPEC convention.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:12 am   rating: 9  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.10   ISpy

      Wait a minute. Elvis was from Tennessee, or is that Mississippi? Can we be more selective about who we replace in the South?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:02 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.11   Not That Nicole the Other Nicole

      I live in Tennessee and I love it here 90% of the time, but crap like the sentiment behind this billboard makes that other 10% hell.

      :( It’s such a beautiful state. What a waste.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:35 pm   rating: 6  small thumbs up

       
    • #10.12   infant tyrone bang

      Claw,
      1) Do the Chickasaw, Cherokee, Shawnee, et al, get to stay?
      2) Either way, what other country is gonna volunteer
      to accept all of our Tennessee Volunteers ?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:38 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #11   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

    You are right. I stand ashamed and corrected:
    “This follows on the heels of previouisly reported incidents; such as Volkswagen setting aside two days a week for “non-English speaking employee orientation;” and the discovery of workers on the job from countries such as Venezuela, Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico, Guatemala, and Poland.”

    http://www.volunteersforlocalhire.com/News.aspx?nID=7665

    Apr 21, 2010 at 8:52 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

     
  • #12   AaronD

    On their website they say that workers are coming from other countries including Puerto Rico.

    You’d think such patriotic folks would be more familiar with their own country’s territorial holdings.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 9:08 am   rating: 30  small thumbs up

    • #12.1   Kiskia

      They should only hire foreigners from Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, and the US Virgin Islands. They considered Canada, but everyone in Tennessee knows that Canada is really a state, so….

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:45 am   rating: 12  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #13   claw71 bang

    You’d never get away with a sign like that last one here in the US. 99.9% is very specific and implies that studies were conducted to arrive at such a precise figure. You’d have to provide the data that proves the bags are 99.9% safe and document the instances in which the bags were most likely to become unsafe.

    Meanwhile, in other countries they can make all kinds of crazy claims. Like the guy on the beach at Nassau who told me he was going to roll me a ‘Bob Marley spliff’ for $20. I asked him how big this spliff was and he said “It’s a Bob Marley spliff, man.” And then he pantomimed something on the order of a foot-long torpedo doob.

    Of course when he came back with my megaroach it was more like a Miley Cyrus slim-teen tampon, and after I torched up I was treated to a fireworks display as the seeds and stems exploded in my jay.

    The moral of the story is that you’re probably going to find better weed at your local college campus.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 9:11 am   rating: 12  small thumbs up

    • #13.1   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

      Sort of like how there is always that one little speck of bacteria remaining on the “effective” side of the Lysol commercials.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:18 am   rating: 9  small thumbs up

       
    • #13.2   Sam S

      You’re lucky that you weren’t arrested. From what I hear, the third-world scam goes something like this: a beach bum sells you grass, and then the cops suddenly show up and arrest you. You end up having to bribe the “police” to let you go. Of course, everyone is in on it. Talk about a major buzz-kill.

      Moral of the story: don’t ever buy from locals.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:46 am   rating: 6  small thumbs up

       
    • #13.3   park rose bang

      Or light up a J in your jay, unless your first name is Monica and you happen to know people in high places, intimately.

      Apr 22, 2010 at 12:43 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #14   Nick

    So a group of upset, presumably unemployed (or ‘volunteers’) decides the best way to parlay whatever meagre earnings they have is to pay for a huge billboard. Oh well, I wonder if the bill-sticker was from Poland, too…

    Apr 21, 2010 at 9:16 am   rating: 6  small thumbs up

    • #14.1   thrall bang

      As long as we’re pulling out the stops on facts, Tennessee is the “Volunteer State.” Thus the moniker on the billboard.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:27 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #15   kthejoker

    So did anyone else notice the second sign says

    “Please leave YOUR YOUR bags here”

    It’s like one of those old “spot the error” puzzles from Ripley’s Believe it Or Not!

    Apr 21, 2010 at 9:23 am   rating: 18  small thumbs up

    • #15.1   thrall bang

      And there was no reason to abbreviate the ellipsis. There was plenty of room on the sign. Maybe they paid by the character. But then they would have only used a period instead of 2/3 of an ellipsis..

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:31 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #15.2   Sam S

      If you knock out one of the “your”s then everything would be out of balance, man! Notice how the words form a nice pyramid?

      And the ellises are for dramatic effect. I was completely captivated by the “But…” what were they going to say next?! The dramatic pause adds so much to the narrative.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:01 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #15.3   TheOldSchool bang

      First things first. I LOVE this site! Whoever came up with it, all I can say is: LOL!

      Second, it seems apparent to me that kthejoker is serious when he hypothesizes that “YOUR YOUR BAGS” was an error.

      Nothing could be further than, or nearer, to the truth.

      Here’s why: from 1500 to 1954, the native people of Guatemala had suffered through countless numbers of loved ones senselessly losing what little there was of their lives due to disputes as to what belonged to whom.

      (Many of these lovely and colorful peoples are proud, greedy, and hard of hearing.)

      Consequently, in 1954, the dictatorial regime of the beloved US puppet, General Manuel Rodriguez Guillermo, mandated that, in order to emphasize ownership, all of his subjects must use the duplicate form of posessive adjectives during any and all of their public and private communications.

      Did new mandate save lives? You bet your your sweet white gringo ass that it did.

      Is it odd? Yes, the repetitiveness may sound or look downright strange to our refined and properly informed sensibilities, but it doesn’t to the would-have-been-widows of all the violence-crazed punks who would be worm poop today, had not the US government so graciously and clandestinely overthrown Guatemala’s democratically-elected leftist president and installed a forward-thinking Army general to help us install a US-style democracy in this coffee-sugar- petroleum-and-banana rich former colony.

      While I’m somewhat happy for the mothers of all the still-living, violence-prone thugs, — I can’t help thinking how much more peaceful and fulfilling everyones lives would be if we could simply learn to adhere to my one core philosophic principle:

      “What’s yours is mine.”

      Or, as they say in resource-rich Guatemala:

      “What’s yours yours is mine.”

      Apr 22, 2010 at 12:51 am   rating: 7  small thumbs up

       
    • #15.4   park rose

      Or as they say in cluster-bombed (some say cluster-fucked) Lebanon – “What’s yours was yours until you trod on that mine.”

      Apr 22, 2010 at 1:12 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #16   shwonline bang

    In the second sign, is that a double period or ellipsis interruptus?

    Apr 21, 2010 at 10:31 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

     
  • #17   Sam S

    So they are 99.9% certain of something, but they won’t guarantee it?!

    Is this a restaurant or a used car lot?

    Apr 21, 2010 at 11:06 am   rating: 5  small thumbs up

     
  • #18   hailster

    UGH!
    this isn’t a Tennessee issue, its a frickin’ education/natural selection FAIL.
    I’m going to have to start spiking water supplies with birth control and poison.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 11:08 am   rating: 7  small thumbs up

    • #18.1   aaa bang

      Technically, the water supply is already spiked with birth control. Oral contraceptives contain more hormone than is used by the body, so all the excess gets peed out. The filters in sewage plant can’t filter them out, so it goes into the water supply. AND NOW IT’S RESPONSIBLE FOR SPERM COUNTS DROPPING LIKE ZEPPLINS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND WE’LL BECOME EXTINCT IN TWO SECONDS HONOES. So yeah.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:13 pm   rating: 7  small thumbs up

       
    • #18.2   infant tyrone bang

      So, I can calm down about the dreaded semen/Propecia transfer now ?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:45 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #18.3   FoxtrotAlph

      Too late. Merck and Monsanto beat you to it.

      Apr 22, 2010 at 7:00 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #19   claw71 bang

    CB did bring up a great point earlier. The people who lean toward the tea party’s alleged values are often the same people who throw tantrums when an ethnic group, particularly if that group has darker skin, celebrates their ethnicity with parties that feature flags representative of that ethnic group’s country of origin. Most of the Euro centric celebrations are acceptable but fly a flag from Central or South America and watch the vitriol fly.

    Of all the flags we see people sporting, the one that has always perplexed me is the confederate flag. The Civil War wasn’t just about slavery but that atrocity is heinous enough to overshadow everything else the south stood for. Southerners will tell you that the “War Between the States was about economics and states’ rights but the primary economic issue was the elimination of slave labor and the rights the states were most concerned with was the right to determine the legality of keeping slaves.

    The NAZIs were about much more than exterminating Jews and Hitler was not a simple tyrant motivated by genocide. In fact, the NAZI movement was more removed from the Holocaust than the Confederacy was from the issue of slavery. Nevertheless the NAZI flag is taboo and the swastika, a symbol that existed long before the NAZIs appropriated it for evil, is considered obscene while the flags and symbols of the South are alive, well and adorning many public buildings throughout the country…a country, mind you, that the people those symbols represented opposed.

    To me the Confederate flag is just as objectionable as the NAZI flag and when it comes to the issue of patriotism I think celebrating the Confederacy borders on an act of treason.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 11:33 am   rating: 22  small thumbs up

    • #19.1   StopDaveStopDaveDaveStop

      This is an interesting perspective, but southerners don’t necessarily associate the Confederate flag with the Civil War or slavery. We use it to identify ourselves as southern to mostly other southerners – to us, it’s no different than having an red elephant or blue donkey sticker on your car. Just associative symbolism.

      As with any symbol, it is possible for it to be taken out of a normal context and put into a hateful context . I guarantee you one could offend another with a map of Antarctica if they tried hard enough.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:52 am   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.2   Sam S

      I’ll promise you this – if I ever reside in another country, I promise never to march around flying the American flag, and covering my car with American flag stickers. I’ll also make it a priority to learn the language and not force my hosts to speak English. You know why? It would be out of respect towards my hosts. Though I am very proud of my nationality, I have absolutely no need to wear it on my sleeve, especially if I’m visiting another land.

      And banning symbols is a stupid way to combat them. All it does is give them the mystique of “taboo”. Sunlight kills all filth – you just have to be intelligent and brave enough to fight in the light – instead of hiding behind stupid laws.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:12 pm   rating: 7  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.3   Kore

      People who lean toward Tea Party values are Libertarians. We support legal immigration, as well as freedom of assembly. For everyone. What we oppose is theft-by-taxation. I’m not really sure what the Tea Party has to do with Confederate flags or any flags. A true Libertarian wouldn’t care about what flags people display on private property. Unless you’re attempting to associate Tea Party goers with redneck know-nothings. That’s a pretty far reach, considering the protesters I saw in Denver last week. Most of the attendees were working stiffs on their lunch breaks.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:20 pm   rating: 8  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.4   mamason bang

      Bullshit, StopDave. Normal context? Are you kidding me? I’m from the south and I’m not ashamed of that until some dumbfuck, beer guzzling, ass scratching piece of shit starts spouting on about what the confederate flag represents.

      Listen Dave… a lot of child molesters think that what they do is loving and yet society says it’s a no-no to diddle the kiddies. No amount of negative reinforcement will change their minds. It’s a defect in their mental make-up.

      That associative symbolism you talk about, and I don’t think that I’m speaking out of turn when I say, most Americans associate that particular symbol with racism, hatred, slavery and one of the most shameful truths of history. It really is like a person of German descent wearing a swastika and saying it has nothing to do with nazi-ism.

      It’s easy to deny being a racist, but face the truth… if someone’s waving a confederate flag, their truth is known whether or not you can admit it.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:24 pm   rating: 22  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.5   oi bang

      this is ridiculous. Swastika as a symbol of cruelty and of Germans now? I never knew that before coming here. OK assume some religious psychopaths get together and go on killing spree of hundreds of women who advocate abortion (or gays if you will) carrying cross all the while. Are you gonna go ahead and attach savageness to cross? of course not.
      It really bugs me. In Hinduism Swastika is almost equivalent of Cross in Christianity. You go to India and you will see so many Swastikas that if you are really offended by it then you are gonna just drop dead because of stroke.
      Swastika is symbol of Hinduism. Especially if you are going to call it Swastika. Nazi’s adopted symbol differs from the Swastika, so if you are going to refer to that don’t call it Swastika.
      If anybody says that Swastika is symbolizes evil one more time, I swear to god… well, I am just gonna laugh quietly on your ignorance. I can’t go ahead and prove your point for you now, that is by killing you for hating on something as abstract as Swastika. Can I now? ;)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:33 pm   rating: 9  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.6   infant tyrone bang

      First, I agree 99.9% with Claw and Mamason, the only slight difference being that I would call celebration of the Confederacy and its flag a mental difference, the learning process of which is, these days anyway, probably starts before a “Southern” kid (regardless of where they live) can know any better. So, they grow up being told by their providers of food, shelter, and clothing that the war “was about more than slavery” and that the flag “just identifies us as Southerners”. The first is objectively true (per 99.9% of historians), and the issue of slavery becomes more distant to Southern minds in direct proportion to how often this shibboleth is uttered, written, and read. The second is true to the extent that its subscribers avoid teaching their children the full history of slavery and the war and becomes more true to those so selectively educated in direct proportion (as above).

      It may seem like a semantic quibble to call it a difference rather than a defect. But since the deficiency is in knowledge that was withheld from childhood, the modest positive changes we have seen in race relations, even in the South (arguably on the trailing edge of change, but still changing, overall), lead me to believe that it is very possible to change this condition of difference in a positive direction with ongoing education, which is far different from the prospects of changing pedophile behavior, based on what I’ve read about “re-education programs” for incarcerated pedophiles.

      oi,
      Short answer to your question is “No, not just now, but the swastika has been a symbol of specifically German cruelty for roughly 70 years in the, for lack of a better term, ‘generally industrialized Western part of the world, as well as in other areas where the swastika was not a prominent symbol. Yes, there are plenty of areas that do not meet either of these criteria, India being the largest, most populous, and most obvious. But, in case you weren’t taught this, a significant part of the Nazis’ mythology involved the idea that the Germans were descendants of Aryans from India. That was their claim and, in part, where they appropriated the variety of swastika designs that they used. Obviously the symbol has different meanings in different countries, but in Germany it meant something so shameful that it was outlawed there by the representative government of Germans themselves. I remember reading in the 1960′s that the Nazi swastika was a left-facing (or counterclockwise) one, and that earlier swastikas were right-facing. Recent research indicates that Nazis used both types and a number of variations of at least the right-facing one.

      And yes, to some extent the fact that anti-abortion murderers profess to be devout Christians does create an emotional reaction toward Christianity and it symbols among those who do not agree that murdering/sacrificing one walking human to “save” multiple gestating ones is an acceptable thing to do (much less a Christian one). People doing extreme things based on an ideology help to create an environment in which both they and their opponents (or victims) have heightened emotional reactions to the ideology and its symbols.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:52 pm   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.7   Mo® bang

      Yes oi it has a very old and different meaning too Not just Hindu and other asian cultures.
      The swastika shape was used by some Native Americans. It has been found in excavations of Mississippian-era sites in the Ohio valley. It was widely used by many southwestern tribes, most notably the Navajo. Among various tribes, the swastika carried different meanings. To the Hopi it represented the wandering Hopi clan; to the Navajo it was one symbol for a whirling log (tsil no’oli’), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals. A brightly colored First Nations saddle featuring swastika designs is on display at the Royal Saskatchewan Museum in Canada. Many 19th century cowboys had the design on their gear as a good luck symbol and was available up to the 1930′s in many saddlery and tack catalogs as a design motif.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

      Apr 21, 2010 at 12:55 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.8   claw71 bang

      Sam, the reason you don’t see Americans doing that in other countries is mostly because Americans don’t tend to immigrate to other countries. Another reason you don’t see it is because Americans don’t really have their own ethnic heritage. Our culture has been enriched with the customs and traditions people brought with them. Generally speaking, when you see somebody proudly displaying a flag from a foreign nation they aren’t celebrating their loyalty to that nation but rather the history they carry with them.

      I get tired of that overly-simplistic argument that we’re all Americans, therefore ethnic pride is unnecessary. To the contrary, the beauty of this nation is its diversity and our ability to pay homage to all of the customs, creeds and cultures that have become part of the fabric of the USA.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:08 pm   rating: 20  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.9   claw71 bang

      oi, I’m educated enough to appreciate the importance of the swastika symbol in eastern cultures but the fact remains that in the west it’s a symbol of evil. That’s what a quest for world domination and the systematic extermination of a couple million Jews will do. I tend to reserve my revulsion for the official NAZI flag, but a lot of people don’t.

      That wasn’t really my point, however. I find it ironic that the same people who abhor the swastika accept the Confederate flag as a symbol of Southern Heritage. Southern heritage existed long before the South tried to secede and had little to do with the politics behind that gambit.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:18 pm   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.10   mamason bang

      I just think that there is enough information available in this day and age that the old excuse, “that’s how I was raised,” just isn’t enough for a pass when it comes to stuff and junk. I was raised to be a racist, drunken pedophile and I’m not racist at all.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:45 pm   rating: 17  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.11   oi bang

      I understand that Claw. First sorry for dragging the discussion away from your point.
      I tried to use Cross example to show that it ‘s ignorant to think Swastika as a symbol of Evil. May be you are not religious kind. Think of your favorite sports team when you were a kid. they must have a symbol, say that’s white eagle. now you wake up one day that exact symbol portrayed as a symbol of evil because some crazy fan took it and committed some heinous crime. How would you feel it? especially if it was an overnight, sudden change as in you were abroad for your adult life and when you return you see that your favorite team symbol is has lost it’s all original value and more over it’s symbol of evil.
      That’s how I felt when I saw Swastika as symbol of hatred. May be even more because it’s not just my favorite team it’s my culture my heritage that’ being portrayed as evil. But at the same time understand that only reference you have with Swastika is Nazism. So it is not gonna change overnight but I do feel it’s my duty show Swastika as Hindu symbol because that’s what it is at the end of day.
      Again by showing my respect for Swastika I am not at all showing respect to “quest for world domination and the systematic extermination of a couple million Jews” that all I want to say.
      With Hitler it’s personal for me because I am against any kind of violence and not only that he took something holy and innocent and turned it into symbol of Evil. So I hate Nazism as much as you do if not more.
      oh you know who I hate even more? Sensationalist jerks in Hollywood like Sandra bullock’s husband and his girlfriend who sport Swastika just for the shock value. I hate them with all my heart.
      Last thing. You can’t say that I am educated enough to appreciate the eastern culture symbols but I won’t because Hitler was a jerk. Either you appreciate them when you come to know them or you don’t and that still makes you ignorant, rude and by long stretch racist (but really loooong). I am not saying you should know them already because frankly you can’t but when you know them respect them. That’s it.
      EDIT IN: I heart Timo’s comment.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 1:57 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.12   ISpy

      Wow. This is deep. I think I’ll go over to Facebook now and decompress.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:08 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.13   mamason bang

      As a Christian, I don’t get it. Christ was killed on a cross and yet it’s what most Christians utilize as the identifier for their religion. Personally, I believe that the true power is in the Resurrection, so clearly the Easter Bunny should be the major symbol of Christianity.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 2:11 pm   rating: 8  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.14   claw71 bang

      I once wrote a thesis arguing that the Easter Bunny is a much more imposing and effective deity than Jesus. Who would you rather worship, some dirty hippy yapping about turning the other cheek or a giant bunny who uses magic to deliver goodies like colored eggs? Plus, look at the way you commune with them. Jesus tells you to eat some bland wafer, while the Easter Bunny hooks you up with delicious chocolate effigies. Team Easter Bunny.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:54 pm   rating: 9  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.15   oi bang

      Team Easter bunny and chocolates!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 4:03 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.16   Mo® bang

      MMMMMMmmmm Chocolates!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 4:44 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.17   mamason bang

      I’d want to hang out with Jesus. As a hippie, He could drop some serious knowledge and He’d have the weed. Then, on my way home, I’d totally want to hang out with the easter bunny cuz I’d have the munchies. Dude. 8-)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:20 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.18   Mark bang

      Jesus was way cool
      Everybody liked Jesus
      Everybody wanted to hang out with him
      Anything he wanted to do, he did
      He turned water into wine
      And if he wanted to
      He could have turned wheat into marijuana
      Or sugar into cocaine
      Or vitamin pills into amphetamines

      He walked on the water
      And swam on the land
      He would tell these stories
      And people would listen
      He was really cool

      If you were blind or lame
      You just went to Jesus
      And he would put his hands on you
      And you would be healed
      That’s so cool

      He could’ve played guitar better than Hendrix
      He could’ve told the future
      He could’ve baked the most delicious cake in the world
      He could’ve scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky
      He could’ve danced better than Barishnikov
      Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you can think of
      Jesus was way cool

      He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
      That’s so cool
      Jesus was so cool
      But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
      So they killed him
      But then he rose from the dead
      He rose from the dead, danced around
      Then went up to heaven
      I mean, that’s so cool
      Jesus was way cool

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:24 pm   rating: 7  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.19   mamason bang

      Mark… ♥

      That’s some mystical shit.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:30 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.20   infant tyrone bang

      1) Where were these Libertarian anti-tax Tea Baggers when Bush was bankrupting this country and wiping his ass on the Constitution they love?

      2) Oh, wait…the Tea Baggers are lovers of the Constitution…just the one before Brown vs. Board of Education (yeah, buddih…that one!).

      Apr 21, 2010 at 7:17 pm   rating: 8  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.21   Canthz_B bang

      I’m not sure StopDave understands what flags stand for.
      They are a symbol of a nation’s identity and all that that society stands for…an endorsement of its ideology.
      They are not indicators of geographical belonging.
      If you want to show you’re from Georgia and proud of it, fly the State flag of Georgia.
      If you want to show that you’re from the South, just speak, the accent will tell all that needs saying.
      If you want to identify with the Confederate States of America and are proud of the CSA, fly the Confederate flag.
      If you want to go even further and signal that you’re a racist good ol’ boy, fly the Confederate battle flag.
      Fly it big and brightly so I’ll know to stay the hell away from you.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:27 pm   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.22   Canthz_B bang

      Kore, did those working stiffs in Denver happen to notice that their taxes were DECREASED last year by the Obama administration?
      Not to say that they are know-nothings, but to identify with an incident which was meant to show a dissatisfaction with taxation without representation in a nation in which you have two Senators and a Congressperson to represent your interests is kind of dumb.
      Just as dumb as the original protest was.
      Who the fuck did they think was supposed to pay for the French and Indian War? The Indians?

      If you truly do not feel your interests are represented in the halls of Congress, really feel left out of the process, all I can say is…sucks, don’t it?
      Try doing that shit for 400 years, then we can talk.

      In the meantime, obstruction for the sake of being obstructionist is both childish and non-productive.
      Lead, follow or get out of the way. ;-)

      Never in all of my years have I seen Americans react to their Party losing an election in this manner. Even after the Bush/Gore result (much closer than the Obama landslide victory) we moved on and got on with business. I wonder what’s so different now?
      Maybe because President Obama is so damned tall.
      Maybe his grace and charisma are just too natural.
      Maybe he’s too well educated. Who needs a President who graduated from Harvard law when we could have Sarah Palin running things? Hell, she went to way more colleges than President Obama did!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:05 pm   rating: 12  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.23   infant tyrone bang

      CB,
      Combating the sacred words of Fox News with math and logic again ?

      I wish you luck + success, but you might want to stock up on garlic and holy water too, since your adversaries are operating on a supernatural level where they feel they have perfect information because they have faith in their sources. Sean and Rush tell them everything they need to know.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:20 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.24   Canthz_B bang

      Ty, windmills always get me to tilt! :-D

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:27 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.25   infant tyrone bang

      This would be a great place to put a link to Pinball Wizard, but I won’t.

      Apr 22, 2010 at 1:32 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.26   ashmeadow

      oi,
      I understand why it would be hurtful to have a meaningful religious symbol appropriated by someone for some evil purpose, and to then have the original meaning obscured. However, your analogies misrepresent the matter entirely. One crazy fan is not what happened. It was more like a baseball team in America decided that the game was descended from cricket in Britain, took a symbol of cricket, which no one in America knew or cared about, put it on their hat and went a murderous rampage in other baseball teams’ cities, as well as killing all of fans of other teams in their own city, while simultaneously compelling all fans to root for them and to turn in anyone who didn’t.
      When this team was finally stopped, everyone would hate the hat, since that was the team’s identifying mark, and also the logo on the hat, since the logo could be put on t-shirts and water bottles, but still represent the crazy baseball team. The logo might have meant something good for cricket, but it meant nothing good for baseball because no one in America knew what it meant originally .

      Secondly, if someone appropriated the cross and did horrible things in America, since the cross is already well-known symbol for something, it would be difficult to turn it into a symbol for something else. But I frankly would be wary of using it.

      At the end of the day the swastika is a symbol of hatred in the West, and a religious symbol in the East. Because of the West’s separation from and distrust of the East it can mean both at the end of the day. Because it doesn’t matter what a symbol means originally. It matters what a group of people associated it with first. Boot means something different in England and America, but I couldn’t tell you what meant what first. That doesn’t mean that that one word doesn’t mean two different things.

      I commend you for trying to change the associated of a word to its original meaning. But don’t be surprised when you’re met with resistance. Your strategy hasn’t worked for the word irony yet.

      Apr 22, 2010 at 10:45 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.27   Canthz_B bang

      “Secondly, if someone appropriated the cross and did horrible things in America, since the cross is already well-known symbol for something, it would be difficult to turn it into a symbol for something else.”

      ” …if someone appropriated the cross and did horrible things in America…”?
      Really?
      What color is the sky in your world?

      The KKK didn’t seem to have much difficulty in that regard.
      All you need is a little lighter fluid and a dry match.

      Comparing a sacred symbol to a baseball team logo?
      Well, that’s a bit disrespectful, don’t you think?

      You see, the Nazis didn’t perpetrate their atrocities in the name of the swastika.
      The German army pledged its allegiance to Adolph Hitler, not to Germany or any symbols of the State.
      As you point out, most of their citizens were unfamiliar with the symbol…but the KKK uses the cross as a symbol of their view that they have God on their side in their bigoted, hateful and all too often murderous crusade.
      A symbol they know all too well the general population can readily identify.

      Mixing apples and oranges doesn’t work very well, especially when your argument is specious at best.

      Please, learn some more history…just a little more…please?

      Apr 23, 2010 at 1:55 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.28   Canthz_B bang

      Sorry, just had to set that record a bit straighter. ;-)

      Apr 23, 2010 at 2:57 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.29   oi

      I won’t reply to you CB. I don’t like interacting with people whose end goal is to prove the others wrong, mind you, not to prove himself right. I have seen your interactions with others and that’s definitely not my cup of tea.
      Having last word satisfies your insecurity about being knowledgeable then you can have the last word.
      Now your line of attack would be that I said that because I don’t have an answer. Yes I accept i don’t have an answer for you.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:50 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.30   Mark bang

      Not replying – FAIL.

      :P

      Apr 23, 2010 at 10:00 am   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.31   oi bang

      Damn! I have failed! What would my mother think of me?

      Apr 23, 2010 at 10:38 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.32   mickeyc

      “this is ridiculous. Swastika as a symbol of cruelty and of Germans now? I never knew that before coming here.”
      Anyone else notice that the English this poster uses is phrased in the German style? Revisionism is in for Germans now apparently.
      If you never knew that the swastika is a symbol of German cruelty you are the one that is ignorant beyond belief.
      When I went to India and saw swastikas everywhere I had the brains to understand that symbols can mean different things in different contexts. The image of the swastika that has been seared into world consciousness was the German use of the symbol.
      I know people that have tattoos in their skin from the death camps inscribed by people wearing the swastika while they did it. I’d love to see you tell these people to their face that the swastika is a symbol that has nothing to do with Germans.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 11:21 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.33   Mark bang

      Um, mickeyc, I’m pretty sure that oi is (dot) Indian. Not German. Like, came to America from India as an adult. So, your observation about going to India and seeing swastikas everywhere? It is pretty apt here.
      Also, your statement about being “seared into world consciousness”… well, me being a stereotypical Westerner, I would agree, except that I know that many Eastern cultures (including India) do NOT see the swastika as being associated only with Nazis. See, the “world” includes West, East, North, and South.
      Just sayin’.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 11:51 am   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.34   ashmeadow

      CB, O CB,
      Your argument is completely irrelevant, since you aren’t responding to my main point. oi made an analogy to emphasize why one should only think of the swastika as a religious symbol. I responded with a modified analogy using the oi’s analogy’s original parameters to show why only thinking of the swastika as a religious symbol isn’t possible in the West for the majority of people.

      And I don’t know where you live, but in the places I’ve lived, quite a few people watch sports more religiously than they practice religion.

      Also, my sky is very blue, but there are white clouds.

      The KKK did appropriate that symbol but I’m going to take a wild leap and suggest that most people in America, even in the south, associate it with Christianity first, unless it’s standing 9 feet tall in somebody’s yard, so, you know, my point still stands (what Christianity means to most people is a completely different topic).

      I never said that the Nazis committed crimes in the name of the swastika, just that it was an identifying feature like the heil and like a team symbol would be an identifying feature of a team.

      So just read through what someone says before you “try to set that record a bit straighter” or tell someone to read more history. Then you won’t call someone’s argument specious, while looking like you didn’t read any of it.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:28 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.35   Canthz_B bang

      Oi, I wasn’t addressing you…I agree with you for the most part.

      Ashmeadow, you clearly stated that it would be hard for someone to turn the meaning of the cross to their own ends simply because it is seen by so many as something else.
      You said ” …if someone appropriated the cross and did horrible things in America…” as if it hasn’t happened. Don’t you think the KKK did (does) horrible things?
      Obviously, you’ve never had one burn on your lawn or show up in your cubicle with a noose around it.
      I haven’t either, but I know it sure isn’t a message that means “Welcome to the neighborhood fellow Christian.”

      I wasn’t attempting to address your entire speech, basically just the quote I highlighted at the top of my comment.
      My intent was to point out to you that symbols of all kinds can easily be appropriated and used to mean whatever the “speaker” would like them to mean.

      For some reason, you think the beloved cross is above this, I beg to differ.

      Crucifiction was around long before Jesus got nailed to a cross. What do you think the sight of large wooden crosses on the landscape meant to people back then?

      Apr 23, 2010 at 7:40 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.36   infant tyrone bang

      I’m not trying to build any bridges or bring harmony (or a Coke) to the world, but the interchange above has got me thinking.

      There are plenty of people here in the West who now know that the swastika predated the Nazis, if only because our public schools have managed to include in their curriculum the fact in that the Nazis adopted a pre-existing symbol. So, if someone encounters a swastika design with no specific Nazi aspects to it, they might recognize it as “the symbol that the Nazis appropriated” but not have any major reaction. If they see a black swastika in a white circle all inside a red rectangle, they will probably recognize it as a Nazi flag and will probably have a greater reaction to it.

      Considering the cross in a similar way, if someone sees a plain old cross, they probably won’t think of the Klan or of contemporary assassins of abortion doctors and their staff.
      But, if they are shown a fiery cross, they will probably, if more slowly than it happens with the swastika, associate it with the Klan.

      So, I suspect that there is a large population for whom both “plain vanilla” symbols do not immediately provoke an emotional reaction, and there is a small population for whom the symbols in their KKK or Nazi context do not provoke such a reaction.

      For what it’s worth.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 8:08 pm   rating: 6  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.37   Canthz_B bang

      Ty, I wish the Nazis had used a yell0w smiley have-a-nice-day face. I could stand to see that thing get a bad rap!!

      Apr 23, 2010 at 8:18 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.38   oi bang

      I feel like an asshole. I am so sorry CB.
      It was morning and I did not have my tea and rose said somebody had replied to me. I did not see ashmeadow’s first post until just right now. I saw your comment kinda skimmed through it.I just read you had straighten the record and I should learn the history. I guess that I am the one who is insecure about my knowledge of US history. I did not see ashmeadow’s first post until just right now and I have not read any of it yet. I feel I should say sorry firs t to you before I do anything else.
      I AM SORRY.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 8:48 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.39   Canthz_B bang

      ♥ No worries, oi. Nothing wrong with being passionate. Have I told you how beautiful you are when your dander is up?! ♥

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:07 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.40   TheOldSchool bang

      Oi, relax.

      My time is too sacred to me to just sit back and watch this site get cluttered up with sensitive, heart-felt apologies any time people start feeling guilty about spewing unwarranted, ad hominen attacks on other people’s characters.

      Life’s too short for remorse. If you fuck up, just make up a reason why the person you needlessly attacked is the one at fault, and then put the other boot in while you’re at it.

      That’s what the punters pay to see.

      Nice sucks.

      Keep the (((hugs))) in the hen house — where they belong.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:09 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.41   oi bang

      so nice of you CB. and TOS too. I certainly did not expect this. ♥ ♥ ♥

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:12 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.42   Canthz_B bang

      Just don’t go telling anyone…I have a reputation to protect! :-P

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:16 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.43   TheOldSchool bang

      Maybe my message of snark and intolerance has been misunderstood.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:32 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.44   oi bang

      I think CB has made it clear ashmeadow.
      I agree that US or western word did not know and that’s why only reference they have for Swastika is Nazism. but that’s not the whole picture and when you have a chance to look at the whole picture you should look at it.
      I admitted at the first sentence that I did not know about Swastika being Nazism symbol at the same time I also saw that yes that’s how it was and accepted yes it won’t change overnight. About my analogy yes it was not perfect but it was crude attempt to make it relevant to more people. I did not at all try to downplay Hitler’s cruelty and insanity.
      I hate violence of any kind and Hitler was violence personified.
      My point was Swastika has other meaning and that’s much more ancient than Hitlar’s. Just because one insane but powerful guy misrepresented it, the entire nation’s convictions does not go away. As I said thousands times before I don’t expect you to know it but when you know it, show respect.
      You know by refusing stubbornly to look it as anything but evil you are making Hitler proud.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:36 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.45   anglophile bang

      TOS, I hearby apologize deeply and profusely if I ever wrote anything that caused you pain. Please, please, please forgive me, I beg you.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:42 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.46   oi bang

      oh mickeyc you won money. You said what I was dying to hear. I am a German in Burqa.
      oh poll time. I have decided to learn two foreign languages but German was not one of them. May be I should reconsider. I mean I already have got German phrasing style down right mickeyc? so it’s Spanish and German now.
      oh and ♥mark♥

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:44 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.47   ashmeadow

      That’s not what I meant CB. I’m sorry if that didn’t come across. My point is that an appropriated symbol which already has meaning in a culture, will probably not continue to primarily mean the appropriated meaning. A burning cross will scream KKK. A cross on a wall, a shirt, a necklace, etc. will not. By “turn it into a symbol of something else”, I meant lastingly. The KKK haven’t done this with the Christian cross (except if it’s burning which turns it into a different symbol in my opinion).

      I went back and looked, and I used a present general conditional, which is not an indictment on the history of events, just on what condition will produce what outcomes. So I wasn’t denying that the KKK used the cross or that they did horrible evil things. I think that’s what you assumed and I’m not sure a conditional implies this (I learned that a present general implies that something did or does or is capable of happening) so crossed wires there.

      oi, I totally agree that people should look at the history and learn where things actually came from. But even if people do know where the swastika came from, it would not be reasonable to assume that a European with a swastika is celebrating his religion. He might be, but that is not a reasonable assumption. That’s not stubbornness, that’s an unwillingness to be around unpleasant people. I also don’t really think that having a lot of Hitler’s own country despise what he stands for and therefore his appropriated symbols is making him proud

      Now if we could stop making assumptions than all problems would be resolved, but then we wouldn’t have this lovely website.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:07 am   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.48   Canthz_B bang

      “an appropriated symbol which already has meaning in a culture, will probably not continue to primarily mean the appropriated meaning.”

      So, the Cross after 2000 years does not symbolize Christianity, but is still a symbol of the power of the Roman Empire to punish dissent? Or does it still mean the appropriated meaning?

      All I’m saying is that it’s not at all hard to change the meaning of a symbol. You disagree, and that’s fine.
      Mostly, it depends upon the context in which the symbol is being used, and the points of view of the user of the symbol and those whom the symbol (or rather the actions of those using the symbol) is used against.
      If I come home and find a cross on my patio, I’m not likely to feel it’s been left by a Christian…it doesn’t have to be ablaze. By the same token, if I find a swastika painted on my door, I’m unlikely to suspect a Hindu.
      Context rules.

      I’m not really in on the swastika debate, but it seems to me that the swastika has had its spiritual meaning for much more than about 85 years, so to insist that it is at once a symbol of atrocity, but that original understandings of symbols are hard to change confuses me.

      But don’t worry about it, I’m happy to stay confused. ;-)

      At any rate, it’s the weekend and I’ve gotta pack for a trip, so I’m out.

      Have a good one all PANophiles!

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:44 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.49   Canthz_B bang

      All packed!

      “By “turn it into a symbol of something else”, I meant lastingly. The KKK haven’t done this with the Christian cross (except if it’s burning which turns it into a different symbol in my opinion).”

      The KKK has used the Cross as a symbol (burning and not) for well over 140 years, is that not lasting?
      A usage that dates back to well before the Nazis.

      Yeah, confusing.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 12:42 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.50   mickeyc

      Regardless of where you are from “oi” you are an ignorant anti semite. Half of my family is Indian so pulling the “I’m Indian!” card doesn’t work.
      As for the post claiming that the swastika was somehow only seared into the memory of the west, WWII was a WORLD WAR. The entire world was affected by the event and the war raged over several continents. You are a great example of the abject failure of US education to deliver even the most basic sense of history.
      Being smug about the systematic murder of six million Jews is disgusting.
      Filth like you need the internet to hide behind.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 1:54 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.51   anglophile bang

      Oh for god’s sake. :roll:

      Where the HELL is oi being smug about the Holocaust? She’s just pissed that a sacred symbol of her culture and home is only known to most people in her new home as a symbol of Nazism.

      This is an interesting discussion, but unless some actual neo-Nazis show up here, I think we’re all pretty much on the same side, so either take it down a notch or go troll somewhere else.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 2:29 pm   rating: 10  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.52   Woman on the Verge bang

      Hey, mickeyc… Personal attacks are unnecessary. oi is a very intelligent person who has questioned how a symbol could have such disparate meanings and whether the perception could be changed.

      She is NOT ignorant, nor is she an anti-semite. You, on the other hand, well, I won’t stoop your level. I suggest you back off. Friendly banter is encouraged. Personal attacks are not.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 2:31 pm   rating: 8  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.53   TheOldSchool bang

      Mickeyc,

      I’m not certain of my own ethnic heritage (other than Daddy was an Anglo, and Mummy was a Saxon), so when I praise or belittle an entire nation’s people or even just a singular humanoid, I’m doing so without any jingoistic baggage.

      My hands are clean, and I like them that way.

      From reading your post, I gather that your beef isn’t so much with oi, as it is with the failures, as you perceive them, with the US educational system. Often those who have been shut out of something begin to resent those who were allowed to participate in it.

      I’m guessing that you are still nursing the psychological wounds of a painful rejection.

      Chances are good that the system failed you. Today, when a child isn’t as smart as the others, the system still finds places for the slow and dim-witted. He or she is no longer cast aside like a dung beetle in a newly opened package of tampons.

      MickeyC, please take a fresh look at today’s American education system. I think you’re going to like what you see. (If you can understand what it is they’re doing.)

      Apr 24, 2010 at 4:59 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.54   park rose

      mickeyec, have you figured that oi is not a product of the US education system yet? At least not at the elementary and secondary levels. It has been stated quite a few times. She is also going to learn two additional languages. I don’t know how many she speaks, but she has mastered English. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the education she received. I admire her ability to express herself so well when I can’t at all in a second language, and I admire the fact that she questions.

      She made a point that a world view in the west is often a world view of only the west. WW2 did rage across the continents and countries. Those in PNG, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, China, Korea and many other areas were great affected and treated hideously. I think the Buddhists and those from Hindu derived religions in those areas probably still use the swastika as an important symbol in their religion. It was appropriated, but that is not to say that it is viewed by everyone in the world solely as a symbol of the evil that was committed in WW2, particularly by those people who come from countries which have large populations of Hindus or Buddhists.

      In fact, those who were victims of the war, or their families now, the religious, probably go to temples which support the symbol to attempt to find some peace and solace there. I doubt that they are raging anti-semites.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:03 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.55   ashmeadow

      CB
      I think you make a good point about context. So I gonna agree with you there, but I think the limited nature of the context makes a big difference in meaning. The cross and the KKK have a more limited context in which the two can be primarily associated. Primarily on someone’s yard, and kinda no where else (if you know of other places where a cross primarily means the KKK, please let me know of them so I can avoid them). I know of a lot of people who put small crosses in their yard because they’re Christian, and so small crosses on someone else’s yard would not give me KKK vibes. But maybe that’s background and therefore more context. And I also agree that the swastika was a religious symbol long before it was a symbol for Nazis, but not in Europe. So I don’t think it was a much changing the meaning as giving an unknown symbol one to begin with. Giving a symbol a meaning is pretty easy.

      While I can’t quite pin down when the cross meant Christianity primarily, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t easy, and involved lots of discrimination and death and such and being the ones in charge and the disuse of crucifixion as a punishment. This does not tell me it wasn’t hard (besides which I thought the cross still indicated crucifixion, which is the original meaning, so I guess the original meaning’s still there.)

      Apr 24, 2010 at 9:57 pm   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.56   Canthz_B bang

      The point is, ashmeadow, that just as the Cross does not mean the KKK everywhere, neither does the swastika represent Nazism everywhere.

      The only difference is how you chose the interpret the symbol based on context.
      A cross someone places on their own lawn could show their faith, a cross placed on your lawn by someone else probably means another thing altogether.
      If you’re black, Hispanic or Jewish you pretty much know when which is which.

      Some people find it hard to see things from any point of view but their own. An inability to empathize if you will.
      That’s why they have knee-jerk reactions to mere symbols rather than taking a step back to consider context.

      If I see a swastika on let’s say a Navajo rug, I’m not going to have the same reaction as I would if I saw it tattooed on a group of skin-heads.

      Since the original meaning of crucifixion was punishment, not redemption, I’m pretty sure the original meaning has changed.
      Like I said, somehow you seem to think that the Cross among all symbols is somehow exempt from manipulation. It is not. It’s just a symbol, a symbol whose meaning changes based upon context.
      When the Crusaders marched behind it to slaughter Muslim men, women and children, I’m sure the Muslims didn’t get the same warm, fuzzy feeling upon seeing the Cross that you may get.
      The nature of the context is not limited to the KKK. Many peoples around the world have been victimized by Westerners and their need to use God as an excuse for expansionism. Whole cultures and languages wiped out in fact…in the name of God, behind the symbol of the Cross.
      So see it for what you’d like to, but understand others may see it differently.
      The Cross has no universally good image, whether you want to believe it or not.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 10:35 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.57   park rose bang

      There is Red Cross, though, as there is Red Crescent. If I happened to be caught up in a war, and wars seem to be universal, and had had my legs blown off, I would be happy to see ambos and medics from either of those outfits coming to help me. Well, it doesn’t have to necessarily be my legs, but you know . . .

      Ironically, of course, I am probably caught up in a war due to manipulation, some might say corruption, of the beliefs and creeds of the religions which those symbols represent.

      Sorry, CB. I’ve got to play the devil’s advocate.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:25 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.58   Canthz_B bang

      That’s OK, rose. I was pretty sure that by capitalizing “Cross” I made clear I was referring to the kind with a long vertical beam intersected about three quarters of the way up by a shorter horizontal beam.

      Interestingly, the highest honor awarded in the German army?…The Iron Cross (equal-sided).
      They also used the equal-sided cross (black) on the wings of their aircraft and the sides of their motorized vehicles (including tanks), not the swastika.
      Therefore, I submit that the cross is a symbol of Nazi atrocities, burned into the collective world consciousness, and can therefore not have any other meaning of relevance, especially in the western world. ;-)

      How’s that for full-circle…since we’re embroiled in circular logic on this one?! :-D

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:46 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.59   oi bang

      CB makes such a good argument. You have shown what I was trying to say far better than I can.

      Shout out to my internet friends here.

      They do not agree with me in my point of view fully and they are not shy to show that but are sensible enough not yell Nazi just because I brought up Swastika. Not only that if they see troll they tell them off for the point of view they do not totally agree. You guys are awesome.

      Then there are some people who are not very different from a raging bull. You know they see a red cloth waving and start charging towards it without looking left, right, up or down.

      I think here by I need to show that Indian education system is not weak. You say WWII was a world war that’s why it affected each and every country of ( all 195?!) the world. That statement is so ridiculous I hope you are not USA education product but I don’t think US education system is weak to start with because look at Anglophile, CB, Wotv and Mark, I know for sure they are from here. so If I am gonna base my judgement of whole country’s education system’s effectiveness I will choose them and say education system is here very effective (incidentally I don’t judge whole countries’s school system based on one or two individuals) Why it’s ridiculous? because it was mostly among powerful countries of West and or Europe. Sure South Asian and other countries got involved but mostly because they were under the power of Queen of England not by their own choice. (Not Japan though, they decided to plunge on their own) Do you know what Indian leaders were doing at that time? fighting for independence from Britishers. sure we learn about Hitler, (holocaust)
      Mussolini and other leaders/participants of WWII but it’s a brief history. Out syllabus goes in depth about struggles of Indian leaders at that time. Also our text books have fleeing mention of Swastika being in Nazi flag, but it sure won’t portray it as an evil symbol. (obviously not to offend very large Hindu population of India) That’s why my feeling of incredibility when I first came to know about Swastika’s meaning in the West. Of course we learned that how Hitler was the biggest asshole world has seen so far, he was out to terminate the whole race for god’s sake!
      Other thing, it sounds like when WWII is brought up people here remember Hitler only. Do you know what others remember? Hiroshima and Nagasaki and before Hitler. Not partaking in debate US was right or wrong in doing that but that’s what we remember when WWII is mentioned.
      hmm the most interesting part of your post? Me pulling being Indian card! Wow! If was gonna pull any card why would not I go for Ace, you know having Indian Jewish ancestors?! why would i go for 6-7 which does not tip the scale in any way! And you say you have got Indian relatives that somehow negates me being Indian? or because you have Indian relatives I am less of a Indian!! what? where? why and how?

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:04 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.60   oi bang

      “But even if people do know where the swastika came from, it would not be reasonable to assume that a European with a swastika is celebrating his religion. He might be, but that is not a reasonable assumption”

      I never ever said that if you see a Swastika on anybody you should assume it’s a Hindu symbol.
      My point is and was if you know about Swastika’s original meaning (Hindu) you should not go around saying Swastika is evil. If you say that I am going to assume that you do not know about original meaning. I never said that just because you know the original meaning you should put aside your judgement of situation based on context. Actually I am with you on that one. Please base your judgement about Swastika’s meaning depending on context and individuals. If you see Swastika on Indian’s home’s doorstep then in that case you can be 99.99% certain that guy has nothing to do with Nazism. 0.01% is there because if you don’t him personally then you can’t be certain.
      Also I wanted to say that I live in US right now and I don’t have a Swastika tattooed on my arm or on my door step. (that’s where traditionally Swastika are displayed as a sign of grounded and stable home which welcomes you) because I know that by doing that I would offend so many people who don’t know about Swastika’s original meaning. Sure I can explain if they ask me but I want to respect the prevalent meaning here in US and don’t want to insult people. I think i am showing reasonable amount of respect towards this culture it’s not unreasonable for me to expect the same in return, that is you show respect to Swastika by not calling it evil if you know the original meaning.
      Even though I know Swastika’s other meaning but because Hitler was a jerk I am not going to look at it any other way argument does not sit with me.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:21 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.61   Canthz_B bang

      Not to mention that the Indians were much more concerned with the Japanese than with the Germans during WWII, as the Japanese had occupied Burma and were a much more direct threat.

      Yes, it was a World War, but not everyone was facing the same threats from the Axis powers.
      The Ethiopians were more concerned with the Italians than the Japanese.
      Or did you forget that Italy was an Axis power? Still, no reason not to spend tourist dollars in Rome, right?
      Who cares how many Ethiopians the Italians killed?

      Just saying…history class…US education. ;-)

      Apr 25, 2010 at 2:13 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.62   Woman on the Verge bang

      This whole conversation is incredibly enlightening. I think if Hitler hadn’t become such a symbol of universal evil, the swastika might have been less reviled.

      I, for one, want to learn more about oi’s swastika and belief system. I am always open to educating myself and this is a great example of the damage that propaganda can do. Oi, thank you for opening my eyes! You are one incredible person.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 10:22 am   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.63   park rose bang

      oi, I do think that Koreans, Chinese and South-East Asians (as opposed to South Asians) might be discussing comfort women, biological experimentation, beheadings, mass rape, Japanese colonialism, forced immigration (to Japan) and so on . . . The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and even the firebombs in Tokyo are shameful, but so are the above events – and they are taught in the schools of those countries (except in Japan) and a lot of bitterness still exists. I don’t mean to imply that one outweighs the other, or justifies the other, but they are all war crimes, and might be talked about just as much as the bombings.

      Japanese expansionism also meant that Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and so on were involved in the war. Those countries were under colonial rule, not just British colonial, and Japan’s excuse for invading was that it was freeing South-East Asia from colonial rule. I don’t know if the locals saw it the same way, but after the war, it is true, direct European colonialism mostly phased out over time. The war histories say that they were probably looking for resources, so, I think in many ways that people from North-East Asia (Chinese, Koreans and so on, who were under Japanese colonialism) and South-East Asia had no choice but to be involved as the invaders were on their doorstep, whether or not their countries were under the auspices of British colonial rule (which could not protect them). Thailand, for example, was not under any overt colonial rule.

      I have lived in Japan and I have great respect for the country, and appreciate the people and their warmth and kindness. In war, though, it seems all atrocities that can be imagined are committed, particularly with an official seal.

      My country (Australia) is responsible for its own underhand tactics with its indigenous population, and also in various wars, and at the bidding of companies, of course – I think that is what foreign policy equates to, right? History is written by the victors. I am glad that The United Nations evolved from the debris of WW2. Of course, it hasn’t stopped wars and human rights abuse from occurring but in theory it is a great idea.

      The Germans were in the Middle East, though, CB, which is also very close to India – but I know you have studied war history a lot more than I have.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 12:27 pm   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.64   Canthz_B bang

      rose, the Germans never had a chance of getting to the mid-east. Their supply lines were far too long and without achieving domination of the Mediterranean Sea, they could never shorten them.
      The British victory at El Alamein pretty much ended all German hopes of reaching the Suez Canal, and control of the Canal was key to control in the Middle East.

      That’s the short version, of course…Stalingrad ate up a huge amount of German resources in the northern route, and India would still be on the other side of Iraq, Iran and “the Stans”.
      No one has done all of that since Alexander the Great.

      In fact, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin met in Tehran in 1943, so there wasn’t much threat to India’s west from Germany.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:33 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.65   park rose bang

      Thanks, CB. Just googled. I just had Rommel fixed in my head for some reason, and the Rats of Tobruk, but that’s my geography – Libya and Egypt. I know when I lived in Oman there was an airstrip that was used by the British, I guess, in WW2, but I didn’t know if the Germans had got there. I also know that were Australian troops in the Middle East, but I guess no great (recorded) battles fought on its soil.

      Kublai Khan or was it Ghengis, kind of did it the other way, didn’t he? Though I don’t know if he got to India, but he did get to what we now know as Iraq (and burnt their libraries) and Iran. Seems India was untouched, but not Afghanistan.

      I better step out of this history lesson now :)

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:58 pm   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.66   Canthz_B bang

      I’d have to look up Indian history, oi probably knows, but I think India has been pretty well protected from invasion from the north over history by mountain ranges.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 2:24 pm   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.67   ashmeadow

      Okay, I thought you thought I was saying all symbols of Christianity had to be good, and frankly I’m not sure where you got that from. I deliberately did not try to ascertain what emotional resonance Christianity has for anyone, for the very reason that not all people believe it is all that is good in the world and shouldn’t. I certainly don’t. In fact, in 19.34 I said “what Christianity means to most people is a completely different topic.”

      Nor do I think the cross is exempt from manipulation. I used it as an example because it has a long-lasting emotional resonancy in America, which I think makes it harder to manipulate in America, meaning that contexts in which it can mean something different are narrower in America . It has a weird relationship with government, despite separation of church and state, and is often seen as a necessary identifier of political morality. I find it weird. One thing I however, I think, changes what symbols mean the fastest is when the people in power create an emotional resonancy for them. So for instance, if America became a Christian theocracy, the symbol of the cross would change to whatever people thought of the theocracy quicker, in a broader context and more widely than it would for simply a terrorist group.

      As far as a I know, Christ on the Cross was being punished for the sins of the world, in the world’s stead. Still a symbol of punishment. I think it is also conflated with redemption and hope for some people big time, but the punishment for the world’s sins is a big meaning also.

      I see knee-jerk reactions as more of survival techniques than lack of empathy. But seeing the deeper contextual meanings behind events is something we should all aspire to.

      If you know any extremely emotional resonant symbols in America that have also been appropriated to mean something else besides the cross, let’s debate that too.

      As a side note, swastikas are all over Greek pottery from the Geometric era. Most think it most probably was influenced by interactions with the Persians and other easterners. The pottery is really pretty, I think, because of its simplicity.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 3:05 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #19.68   Canthz_B bang

      Ashmeadow, Christ on the cross for the world’s sins is exactly how I figured you understood it, so I wasn’t off the mark, your feelings were made quite clear whether you stated them outright or not.

      That’s the Christian spin on why Jesus was crucified, not the legal or secular or factual reason.

      You don’t think that when the judgment against him was read they said “Jesus of Nazareth is hereby condemned to death for the sins of the world.”, do you?

      Oh, and one could argue that the “sins of the world” he was supposedly dying for? That originally referred to the sins of those who had condemned him to death (“Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.”), not everyone on Earth.

      It all depends on interpretation and who wants to use it toward what end.
      It all depends upon just who “them” and “they” refer to, and that is open to interpretation.

      As for other symbols, I didn’t bring up the Cross, just responded to the ongoing conversation.
      However, I always find the Star-Spangled Banner resonates well with me, even though the American patriotic poem was set to the tune of a popular British drinking song, written by John Stafford Smith for the Anacreontic Society, a Men’s social club in London. “The Anacreontic Song”.
      I also like “My Country, ‘Tis of Thee”, set to the tune of “God Save the Queen”.
      Two tunes appropriated and used with new meaning. Not physical symbols, but art used for a new purpose and to impart new meaning/message nonetheless.

      Again…as I said before above…”My intent was to point out to you that symbols of all kinds can easily be appropriated and used to mean whatever the “speaker” would like them to mean.”

      I think I’ve clearly supported my point several times, and been unusually nice about it in doing so.
      This is an old thread, so respond if you must, but I’m moving on.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 10:15 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #20   Marishka

    Hey! The Venezuela flagf is not that one!! That’s the flag of my country, Uruguay!
    We would hope if they’re going to be fo xenophobes they would at least try to get a stupid sign right.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 1:40 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

     
  • #21   mamason bang

    I got nothin’.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 1:43 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

     
  • #22   uruguaya

    That is NOT Venezuela’s flag!!! ay, ay, ay, dear Americans… with sooooo many children left behind…

    Apr 21, 2010 at 2:03 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

     
  • #23   mamason bang

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but that is NOT Venezuela’s flag!!! I’m surprised no one noticed that before now.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 2:13 pm   rating: 12  small thumbs up

    • #23.1   thrall bang

      refer to comment #2… and it’s only most of Uruguay’s flag. It’s missing a stripe.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 3:53 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #23.2   oi bang

      and Thrall you refer to comment #24.1…Believe me she gets the irony.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:31 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #23.3   anglophile bang

      Did you know in America, servers don’t get paid minimum wage?

      Apr 21, 2010 at 8:37 pm   rating: 9  small thumbs up

       
    • #23.4   Mo® bang

      Well the slow ass bitches are always standing around breast feeding like exposed whores. They deserve to get paid less!

      Apr 22, 2010 at 12:34 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #24   infant tyrone bang

    If it ain’t Venezuela’s flag then the next thing
    uruguayan to tell me is is ain’t P/A either ?

    Apr 21, 2010 at 2:31 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

     
  • #25   Denny DelVecchio

    It’s a freaking GERMAN car company for God’s sake.

    Put the nationalism back in your holster, Buford F. Tennesseean.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 5:09 pm   rating: 10  small thumbs up

    • #25.1   mamason bang

      Oh, the irony, Denny. The irony. I get you man. 8-)

      Apr 21, 2010 at 5:25 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #25.2   sleeps

      Just like we got Blogmella…90 comments ago. But bonus points for the use of ‘Buford’. Comedy gold!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 7:07 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #25.3   Denny DelVecchio

      Just like Uncle Leon taught me…read the first, the last, and yours if you have any time left over.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:27 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
    • #25.4   TheOldSchool bang

      Denny,

      I’m beginning to get excited about the possibilty of you, maybe (but only if you truly want to do it), inviting your Uncle Leon to PAN.

      I think it would be the first nephew/uncle tag team that PAN has ever had, and it’s a story that I can easily imagine myself sharing with someone’s grandkids one day.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 9:24 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #26   Love My Daily PAN

    That Venezuelan flag was fucking delicious.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 8:32 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

     
  • #27   anglophile bang

    Am I the only one who was so annoyed with the stupid serifs on the ms, ns and hs on the font to go looking for it?

    I am?

    It’s Equinox. It’s like stupid 7th grade writing in font. Perfect for a PA billboard, I guess.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 9:03 pm   rating: 5  small thumbs up

    • #27.1   TheOldSchool bang

      Thank you, Glo, for confirming what many of us had privately suspected, but were just too cowardly to confirm for ourselves.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:32 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #28   Shiva

    It’s cute that Tennessee is so pissed off over foreigners getting jobs at a Volkswagen plant.
    It’s great that Americans get jobs at a German car plant, but it’s not OK for a Venezuelan to get a job in Tennessee…Assholes.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 9:28 pm   rating: 6  small thumbs up

    • #28.1   TheOldSchool bang

      Shiva, even the smallest Venezuelan would find it difficult to find employment inside even the largest Tennesseean’s asshole.

      No matter how far a Venezuelan managed to get his or her foot in the Volunteer would-be employer’s back door, I’m afraid that even part-time, late-night, minimum wage, temp work would still be highly unfeasible.

      That said, the sphincter is an alarmingly resiliant muscle that can be stretched to accommodate the most unlikely shaped objects, so I have a clenching feeling that I know just where you’re going to shove my observation.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 9:46 pm   rating: 8  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.2   Jimmy

      I was employed in a Tennessean’s asshole once. But I decided not to make it more than a temp job, ’cause they’ll hang you for that kind of work around those parts.

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:30 pm   rating: 7  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.3   Canthz_B bang

      Bah! They stopped hanging “creampuffs” hours ago! :-P

      Apr 21, 2010 at 10:55 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.4   TheOldSchool bang

      Jimmy, you were one lucky stiff to get in and out when you did.

      Back in my day, the bosses who had those types of openings played VERY hard to get. You had to woo him with flowers, theatre tickets, oceans of bubbly, some magic tricks, and a late night dinner for two at Chattanooga’s then ultra-chic Russian Tea Room, and that was just for starters!

      Apr 21, 2010 at 11:19 pm   rating: 4  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.5   TheOldSchool bang

      CB,

      Interesting. It’s to be expected, I suppose, what, with the way rope prices have been climbing.

      So, what do those good ole boys use, nowadays, to to make sure their message is understood?

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:42 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.6   Canthz_B bang

      Anita Bryant quotes?

      Apr 24, 2010 at 12:32 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.7   Shiva

      TheOldSchool,

      Who said a thing about shoving your observation anywhere?

      I stand by what I said: For Americans to rudely complain about foreigners getting foreign jobs is a dick move.

      Apr 27, 2010 at 1:38 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

       
    • #28.8   anglophile bang

      LOL, Shiva. You’re really going to reply to TOS’s joke using the words “dick move”?

      :lol:

      Apr 27, 2010 at 9:05 am   rating: 0  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #29   Nick

    Wtf? POLAND?

    That’s such a random country to bitch about.

    Apr 21, 2010 at 11:33 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

    • #29.1   FoxtrotAlph

      Not if you live in Chicago.

      Apr 22, 2010 at 7:05 am   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
    • #29.2   TheOldSchool bang

      Or Poland.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 9:45 pm   rating: 3  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #30   FoxtrotAlpha

    I wonder if it’s dawning on the Volunteers in hindsight that they can’t trust big business? Give ‘em all the giant tax breaks and loop holes they can handle, then the do whatever the fuck they want. I bet the Volunteers are all still marching around down there talking about the eeeevils of the Government. Less regulation ya’ll!

    Apr 22, 2010 at 7:09 am   rating: 2  small thumbs up

     
  • #31   Rossy

    I like how being racist is different than being biased against everyone who lives in the south. Oh wait, it’s actually not…

    Apr 22, 2010 at 2:39 pm   rating: 2  small thumbs up

    • #31.1   Canthz_B bang

      I love how being against the actions of some southerners magically transforms into, and is perceived to in fact be, a bias against all southerners.
      Not everyone who lives in the south is afraid to acknowledge that the “heritage” some would celebrate isn’t something that should be celebrated.

      There were plenty of brave German soldiers during WWII, but the cause for which they fought was not an admirable one, so they are not honored as heroes.
      Why some in the south would like to honor their Civil War dead as heroes is beyond me. They fought to preserve an abominable social system. I for one am glad they lost.

      Apr 22, 2010 at 8:05 pm   rating: 9  small thumbs up

       
     
  • #32   M

    Worst part is, the countries don’t match the flags on the billboard, the flag over Venezuela, is actually the flag of Uruguay… Maybe that’s why VW did not hire the “Volunteers”, sloppy work?

    Apr 28, 2010 at 6:45 pm   rating: 1  small thumbs up

     
  • #33   Shiva

    Yes.

    Apr 28, 2010 at 7:46 pm   rating: 0  small thumbs up

     
  • #34   Stephanie

    I love that the flag depicted as Venezuela’s actually belongs to Uruguay.

    May 12, 2010 at 6:42 am   rating: 1  small thumbs up

     

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